When does one use page 390 as opposed to pg 391?

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When does one use page 390 as opposed to pg 391?

Postby adambein » Dec 17, 2015 10:25 am

In the Dramatica book, when does one use page 390 and when does one use page 391?
Which is the next step below the following, cuz this is super, super important:
4 classes
then...
16 types
then...
64 variations or 64 elements?

I need to know I thiiink cuz I need to reinfooorce the 16 types layer, riiight? Cuz I'm trying to sketch out the 4 throughlines and whatever's the correct 64 to do so is the proper choice, riiight?

Thx. SUPER important.
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Re: When does one use page 390 as opposed to pg 391?

Postby adambein » Dec 17, 2015 10:35 am

'Asking for friend who's having problems with his zombie story. lol ; )

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Re: When does one use page 390 as opposed to pg 391?

Postby adambein » Dec 19, 2015 8:37 pm

Which of these choices is assigned to the 4 throughlines?

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Re: When does one use page 390 as opposed to pg 391?

Postby Chris Huntley » Dec 27, 2015 10:58 am

If you look at the 3D representation of the domain chart you will see that the Classes, Types, Variations, and Elements are stacked vertically such that the classes are at the top and the elements at the bottom.

These charts of structural items is like looking at parts of the periodic table of chemical elements. Examine alone they have inherent meaning, but you need to see how they fit in the larger context to get a sense of how they fit in the 'scheme of things'.

That said, the short answer to your question is (GENERALLY-SPEAKING):

Classes = Genre
Types = Plot
Variations = Theme
Elements = Character

...where '=' means is 'frequently related to'.

Page 390, which shows all 64 Variations in the Dramatica structural chart, is most related to Theme, whereas page 391, which shows only 64 Elements (of the 256 Elements) in the Dramatica structural chart, is most related to characters -- specifically the objective characters in the Overall Story throughline.

NOTE: There are story points at all four levels of the structural chart and do not necessarily honor the generality I describe above.
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Re: When does one use page 390 as opposed to pg 391?

Postby adambein » Jan 03, 2016 9:46 pm

Thanks! I wasn't sure which applied to what! I'll take look again w/my book in front of me!

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Postby adambein » Jan 05, 2016 6:56 pm

I'm gonna use letters to split this up. There's a lot.

A. ---------------
Nope, that didn't clarify enough-although it IS nice to be able to add 'Characters' next to the words '64 Elements', on page 391 at the top. Plus add "Objective in the OS thruline' as well. So I've got that now-thanks for that.

The first 'level'/top level (page 388) is easy to understand it's position. It's at the top-there's nothing above it.

Going 'down' to the second 'level' is easy to understand the position of the second level (page 389) as its relates to/below the first level.

B. -------------
Um... It's easy for me to see how page 388 is above page 389 (they line up pretty good). I WOULD however change this:
1. Change 'Situation Types' to '4 Situation Types'.
2. Change 'Activity Types' to '4 Activity Types'.
3. Change 'Situation Types' (in the bottom left corner) to '4 Manipulation Types'.
4. Change 'Activity Types' (in the bottom right corner) to '4 Fixed Attitude Types'.

Yeah, the labeling error you addressed somewhere else in this forum, but having the #4 in front would help, becauuuse...

C------------

Going 'down' to the 3rd 'level' (page 390) it's easy to understand because it's got the name of each cell above each cell or below each cell.
It's easy for me to see how page 390 is situated below page 389. However, it'd make it easier if it was not written as:
1. 'Situation Elements' but instead as '16 Situations Elements'.
Then...
2. Change 'Activity Elements' to '16 Activity Elements'.
3. Change 'Manipulation Elements' to '16 Manipulation Elements'.
4. Change 'Fixed Attitude Elements' to '16 Fixed Attitude Elements'.

That'd keep the formatting/pattern/labeling consistency. On the other hand, if you want to sell a 3-D transparent chart a la a Star Trek Chess Game, I'd uy it. I'd buy it because of this problem:

D. ------------------

(This is my big question): I don't see where page 391 fits in. Does page 391 get swapped out with page 390 at the 3rd 'level'? I bet it does because they have the same # of squares/cells.

Here's the next issue:
See page 387? Are you running two models simultaneously? If so, that'd explain a lot. That'd mean that the 1st and 2nd levels are the same and the 3rd levels are different.

E. --------------------

You know what I think'd help? I'd make THREE 3-D charts, one for Classes alone, one for Genre alone, and one combining Class and Genre (if you think that'd be the right thing to do-cuz I'm not up to that level of understanding yet, and if that's what you & Mel did with that image on page 387). Basically, IF the charts are combined, run 'em separately until us noobs get up to speed, THEN combine 'em. Especially because we're using the chart for what we are reading on pages 103-107 (and pages 110-112, and 194-196), which at that point, has nothing to do with Theme but is only to do with Throughline clarification and assigning-where noobs like me are at at that point in time. KnowWhatImeanVern?

F. --------

So, do pages 390 and 391 get swapped out under page 389 position-wise?

Thanks!

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Re:

Postby Chris Huntley » Jan 06, 2016 3:48 pm

adambein wrote:It's easy for me to see how page 390 is situated below page 389. However, it'd make it easier if it was not written as:
1. 'Situation Elements' but instead as '16 Situations Elements'.
Then...
2. Change 'Activity Elements' to '16 Activity Elements'.
3. Change 'Manipulation Elements' to '16 Manipulation Elements'.
4. Change 'Fixed Attitude Elements' to '16 Fixed Attitude Elements'.

That'd keep the formatting/pattern/labeling consistency.


That is not accurate. There are 16 Variations in each Class (e.g. Situation). There are 64 Elements in each Class.
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Re: When does one use page 390 as opposed to pg 391?

Postby Chris Huntley » Jan 06, 2016 3:52 pm

RE: D

Page 391 goes BENEATH the Variations. Page 392 show how the four levels fit together in a 3D model.
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Re: When does one use page 390 as opposed to pg 391?

Postby Chris Huntley » Jan 06, 2016 4:29 pm

RE: E

I do not really understand your questions. The 'genre' aspect of the chart is all on one level, so there is no need to look at a 3D version of it. The labels on 387 are there to give a sense what each horizontal level 'feels' like. They are indicators, not definitions.

I've attached a version of the 3D model similar to the picture on page 387, but this one is in color and has labels so that there is NO AMBIGUITY about how the different levels fit together. Unfortunately, I only included a lower resolution version so you may not be able to read the element names, but you'll get my point I believe. The reason we did not include this in the book was because we were not expecting the confusion (and this is the first time I've really had to address it), plus it is difficult to read the names of the different structural items when they are piled on top of one another.

Dramatica-structure_chart-3D.jpg
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Postby adambein » Jan 17, 2016 12:34 pm

1. Oooh. I should make this into a 3d walk-thru map. Then ppl can walk thru the levels. I wonder if I can do this as a free download. Hm. Ora transparent table-top model would work too.
Thanks for this.

2. No, on page 391 there are 16 Activity Elements. It says 'Activity Elements'. Change that to '16 Activity Elements'. Same thing with the Situation header, the Manipulation header, and the Fixed attitude header.

3. On page 390, change '64 Variations' to '64 Thematic Variations'. Then on the same page, change each header of each quadrant to have a 16 in front. The charts are not clear enough-and the problem begins on page 389 with the bottom two headers being completely inaccurate-BUT, they and the to headers DO set a precident. Now we need to carry that precident over to the next charts.

4. Once all that is changed, then the...Story Assembler-person (me), can take his MC thruline (which from looking at page 388 is...assigned to 'Situation') and run the MC thru the sub cells and sub-sub cells. I've got first 'Situation'/'Universe' page 388, then drop directly down to Past/Present/Future/Progress on page...389, then my character explores/drop down one more level to the 16 cell chart on page 394. Cuz that's the order. Riiight?

In other words, my Main Character (me) picks one of 4 houses on a street corner and walks in. The other 3 throughlines pick the 3 other houses on the intersection and enter. I explore the ground floor room #1 by dropping down into the cellar and exploring each of the 4 rooms (maybe I bump into one of the other 3 throughlines while I'm down there)-while down in each room there's 4 trap doors that I can open and look into. When done with each of those trap doors, I can go back up out of the cellar to the ground floor and walk into a 2nd room where I immed. drops down into the cellar and explores the 4 rooms of the cellar there-and the 4 trap doors in the floor of each of those rooms. Basically. After all 4 rooms on the ground floor have been explored, their cellars explored (or not), and their trap doors all opened (or not), I/my Main Character walks out of the house and to the middle of the intersection and meets up with the other 3 throughline (granted, some throughlines can share cellars and trap doors). I'm just trying to figure out what basement is under which room and which trap door is under which basement.

5. The real problem might be that the chart on page 391 is interrupting me as I advance thru from pages 388. I hit that page and <bammo> "What the heck?!". Unless pages 390 and 391 are on the same level. Are pages 390 and 391 at the same level, 3rd level down from the top?

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Re: When does one use page 390 as opposed to pg 391?

Postby Chris Huntley » Jan 19, 2016 9:24 am

Hey Adam --

The structure model is A way to see the PIECES and RELATIONSHIPS of the items in the structure, but is not an adequate tool to use for creating or analyzing narratives. It shows the model at rest. A storyform represents a "twisted" version of the model.

Also, it is best NOT to think of the levels as genre, plot, theme, and character (GPT&C). GPT&C are EVERYWHERE in the model AND in the dynamics. There are aspects of GPT&C at ALL levels of the Dramatica structural model. Identifying the levels the way I did is a convenience but not accurate.

I recommend you do not use the informational structure models for anything more than as visual representations of their spatial relationships.
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Dropping down for starters.

Postby adambein » Jan 27, 2016 7:11 pm

Let's say that for starters tho', annnd...until a work is refined/tweeked, is that a way to start that'll get one in the ballpark with a decent foundation?

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Re: When does one use page 390 as opposed to pg 391?

Postby Chris Huntley » Feb 05, 2016 12:01 pm

Not really. I don't suggest writing from the structure because the structure itself does not contain meaning. The STORYFORM mapped on the structure contains meaning.

A lame analogy is like looking at car parts and a manual that shows how they go together and trying to use that to learn how to drive. They are related, but the pieces to not inform a user sufficiently on their use when built into a finished car.

If you don't want to use the software to learn the system then I recommend sticking with answering the story dynamics questions and then letting your muse guide you from there.
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Re: When does one use page 390 as opposed to pg 391?

Postby adambein » Feb 06, 2016 9:07 am

Hm. Okay.
There was a precedent that was put in place prior to what you're now saying tho'. I think. Or else that was helping me grasp the concepts. See, the grid on page 388 sits nicely on top of the grid on page 389. I just want to know what the grid on page 389 sits on top of-the grid on page 390 or the grid on page 391? Let's say you don't want to weave in weaving-for some reason.

Like a woven rug, while one might start off with some main, guiding threads and the item resembling a net more than a rug, the role of the the threads is not the same as it once was once there's more threads in the whole entire weaving and the item becomes more rug-like and less fishing net-like?


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